Truthdig: Drilling Beneath the Headlines

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Inside the Data Mine

On April 20, 2007, former Qwest telecommunications CEO Joseph Nacchio was found guilty on 19 of 42 counts of insider trading. “For anyone who has ever made a call in Qwest territory, the term ‘convicted felon Joe Nacchio’ has a nice ring to it,” U.S. prosecutor Troy Eid told the press. The mood was fairly universal. One securities lawyer pitched in: “The government has another notch in their belt. They’ve had a tremendous winning streak in these corporate crime cases.”

But it would have been more accurate to qualify the statement by saying that the government has had a tremendous winning streak in the corporate crime cases it chooses to pursue. We now know that the Securities and Exchange Commission has chosen not to pursue charges of insider trading in the case of a Wall Street executive named John J. Mack because of his “political clout.” And while former U.S. Attorney William Leone led the case against Qwest, he was one of the unfortunate attorneys on the Department of Justice’s “purge list,” replaced by none other than Bush-nominated Troy Eid, a former co-worker of Jack Abramoff at the firm Greenberg Traurig.

In the wake of the Enron scandal, Nacchio’s verdict could be seen as the continuing triumph of an efficient and unbiased judicial system—one working to protect the people’s interests against unbridled business tycoons. But the insidious environment of purges and selective prosecution based on cronyism necessitates a more critical view.  To celebrate Nacchio’s verdict in such a simplistic light would miss a far more interesting story about what telecommunications success and failure signify in a post-September 11th world.

Delving into Joseph Nacchio and Qwest’s story reveals a company with close ties to the White House—ties that appear to have been temporarily severed when, according to Nacchio and his legal team at Qwest, the company refused to participate in the government’s data-mining program—making it the only big telecommunications company that didn’t take part. Nacchio claims that secret government contracts he was expecting were never delivered after his refusal to participate in the National Security Agency program, resulting in skewed profit claims.

While currently under new leadership, wooing back government contracts, and finally turning a profit, Qwest will have to struggle to maintain a competitive edge in an industry of telecommunications giants. These giants have received favorable treatment from the Department of Justice and the Federal Communications Commission. Parallel to this success have come news reports that these ever-merging entities—notably AT&T, BellSouth and Verizon—are participating in domestic data-mining programs.

In an amoebic dance, SBC, AT&T, Bell South, Cingular, MCI and Verizon have all coupled and re-coupled, forming a terrain redolent of the days of Ma Bell. Comedian Stephen Colbert, with deadpan delivery, traced the acrobatics in his January 2007 TV primer explaining why Cingular changed its name to AT&T:

As you no doubt remember, Cingular was co-owned by BellSouth and SBC, which had been Southwestern Bell and Ameritech, which before that had been Illinois Bell, Wisconsin Bell, Michigan Bell, Ohio Bell, and Indiana Bell. ... A couple of years ago Cingular bought AT&T Wireless and renamed it Cingular, but then SBC bought AT&T and changed its own name to AT&T. Then that new AT&T bought BellSouth, changing its name to AT&T, making it only logical to change Cingular into AT&T.

These mergers are even more conspicuous due to the number that have been approved in just the past three years. 2005 alone saw enough mergers to leave Americans with only two major telecommunications companies: Verizon and AT&T. Colbert cites the most recent and highly contested AT&T/BellSouth merger that combined the country’s two largest telecommunications companies. Despite the massive scope of the merger, when the Department of Justice conducted its regulatory analysis it concluded that there were no major antitrust issues.

In contrast to companies such as AT&T, BellSouth and Verizon, Qwest has encountered significant roadblocks in its expansion efforts, causing telecommunications experts to ask pointed questions about differing treatment from the Department of Justice, the FCC and the SEC. Specifically:  Is there government retribution? The question gains clout in light of the recent U.S. attorney scandal and the selective prosecution that the Bush administration has been practicing.

The ties between the telecommunications industry and the White House have grown even deeper since the Sept. 11 attacks, making it impossible to understand data mining or the telecommunications industry without exploring this relationship.

Dig last updated on Aug. 9, 2007


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By albertsparks, July 28, 2011 at 11:29 pm Link to this comment

It is entertaining to see the names Enron, Qwest, SBC, AT&T, Bell South, Cingular, MCI and Verizon in one page. Colbert nails it in the head with his flawless interpretation of why Cingular changed its name to AT&T, although visually they look like a mass of worms eating each other on one end and spitting the contents out to the other for the rest to devour.

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By mike turner, February 10, 2010 at 12:00 pm Link to this comment

Isn’t it suspicious that while the Bush Intell people were secretly collecting files on  
millions of honest hardworking Americans & going through OUR financial
records…they just ignored the clandestine overseas accounts where TERRORISTS
would hide the BIG MONEY?

Only seven years after 9/11 did the Obama adminstration take a peek into off
shore $$$...and that seems to have been a halfhearted look.

Dick Cheney knows they didn’t touch that money. Figure it was shifted to other
places? Only a person on the TEAM came be a traitor.

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By RonAngell, January 29, 2009 at 10:28 am Link to this comment

Tortured in The USA for truth.. http://www.myspace.com/criticalthoughtandreason  http://www.myspace.com/wakemeuponowplease


William J Rigby, Joan m Rigby of 701 Burning tree lane naperville illinois had prior information of the attack on 9/11/2001.  They called me and actually were happy the twin towers were destroyed.  “Welcome to the new world- everything has changed” Joan Marie Rigby- Canadian born foreign national-traitor to Canada- Traitors to the USA.  Joan M Rigby and William Rigby maintain also a home on longboat key Florida- mistletoe lane in the longboat key club. 

http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/6/l_6ecdef9728534d428463334a7a0de32c.jpg
[url=http://www.ae911truth.org/]http://www.ae911truth.org/ [/url]

http://www.ae911truth.org/images/other/prez.jpg

Dear President Obama-

A group of about 200 psychologists and allies has created an Open Letter to President-Elect Obama expressing concerns regarding his rumored consideration of John Brennan to be Director of the CIA.
The letter:

http://psychoanalystsopposewar.org/blog/2008/11/24/open-letter-to-president-elect-obama-break-with-the-dark-side-do-not-nominate-john-brennan-as-cia-director/#more-2055

<h3>Open Letter to President-Obama: Break With the Dark Side. Do Not Nominate John Brennan as CIA Director </h3>

Asian Victims Association against Directed Energy Weapons.
</a>

[url=http://asianvictimsassociation.ning.com/profile/ron]http://asianvictimsassociation.ning.com/profile/ron [/url]
</a>

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By AT, June 13, 2008 at 6:15 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Are you all letting the phone companies and the FBI off the hook? What have they done?

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By Douglas Chalmers, February 16, 2008 at 12:16 am Link to this comment

By Carla Herwitz, February 13: “Truthdig is sloppy… no one will answer me…. how do I ever know if anyone has an opinion on anything that I say that is important…”

Uhh, this is NOT “a decent blog”, Carla. Its run by a bunch of lazy, good-fer-nuthin’ laid back hippie refugees from the 1970’s.

I know there are more important things but I copied this response from another topic:-

As an unregistered commenter, you haven’t a chance. This is a “blog” but not a “forum”,  sad to say. In other words, for regular commenters, it is a frustrating incompetent mess.

They are happy to run it that way because they have no respect for us, treat us as idiots, and don’t appreciate our contributions anyway, uhh. Supposedly its a “news” blog and not a “discussion” forum.

The reason for all that is because it was started by a supposedly trendy California professor of journalism but the only people he is interested in have $$MONEY or lots of “summa cum laude” accolades at the very least. He also hates the wives of former presidents….

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By Conservative Yankee, February 14, 2008 at 3:23 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

they have also blocked the “search/find” feature… does that send a message?

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By Carla Herwitz, February 13, 2008 at 10:36 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I know there are more important things to write about here, but this is important to me.  I wrote 3 times to Truthdig to ask how I can find my posts within all these pages, and no one will answer me.  Therefore, how do I ever know if anyone has an opinion on anything that I say that is important?  I don’t.  Most decent blogs have this function.  Most decent people answer their mail.

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By aafshar, October 15, 2007 at 2:07 pm Link to this comment

see what al gore had to say about this yesterday on his first video post. it looks like he is running for the office.
http://current.com/people/algore

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By John Borowski, October 11, 2007 at 2:15 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

As I watch the goings on in Wall Street I’m afraid of busting my gut laughing. Folks, bad things are going to happen that will make the 1930 depression look like an era of prosperity. You heard it here first . There is not only insanity in politics but also in Wall Street as well.

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By John Borowski, October 11, 2007 at 6:49 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The evils have inveigled the human kind for two thousand years that a god exists. Do you believe they can’t con the human kind for two decades that 9/11 was perpetrated by the “killems for god”? The British have the five hundred pound American gorilla on a steel chain, but they can never sleep easy. They live in constant fear the five hundred pound American gorilla if agitated could easily break the chain. Absolute wealth and absolute power curses those that posses it with absolute insanity. In the old days they could use their absolute insanity to kill millions on earth because they could not live in the same kitchen peacefully. With the weapons available today they have the means to kill the world. It will turn out to be a good thing because it will result in their invincible evil to no longer to exist.

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By John Borowski, October 11, 2007 at 5:26 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

There are two stores that are on the same street competing together for the customers in that area. It’s mandatory for the two stores to bend over backwards to treat their customers with the best service and lowest prices possible. One store loses the game and goes out of business. The other store can now treat their customers with the worst service and the highest prices that they can get away with.
This is the same thing that happens between two political systems. Once one political system puts the other political system out of business by giving six traitors a billion in their back pocket they can now treat their own citizens as they wish. The gist to this analogy is Napoleon with the mightiest army at that time tried to bring down that political system and failed. Hitler with the mightiest army at that time tried to bring down that political system and failed. Two devastating world wars tried to bring down that political system that killed half of the country and half of their people and failed. Total economic blacklisting tried to bring down that political system and failed. Over night six traitors with a billion dollars each in their back pockets brought that political down. Yes people the buck is mightier than the sword.

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By Michael Shaw, October 9, 2007 at 12:50 pm Link to this comment

105751 I’d like to add John it seems that Norman Solomon agrees with you.

“The warfare state doesn’t come and go. It can’t be defeated on Election
Day,” writes media critic Norman Solomon in his new book, Made Love, Got
War: Close Encounters with America’s Warfare State. Like it or not, it’s at
the core of the United States - and it has infiltrated our very being.”
Norman Solomon joins us in our firehouse studio to about the book.

Listen/Watch/Read
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/10/03/1349247

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By Michael Shaw, October 9, 2007 at 11:18 am Link to this comment

105725

Well John, I see it as Ernest does. Why transport nuclear material while having a world wide dirty bomb attack simulation? Also add in the fact they(the military) were in similar mode during the 9/11 attacks. One more attack or accident is all it will take for Bush to declare marshal law. These people are out of their freaking minds! They are madmen! I can only pray at this point the two of you are wrong.

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By John Borowski, October 9, 2007 at 6:31 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The problem as I see it is if the American people had the perspicacity to see through the Republicans (Aka Conservatives right wingers) phony tax cuts and killed them in the cradle the bad things today would never have happen. Now that they are five hundred pound gorillas there is no stopping them. No one can circumvent the coming dictatorship. Voting will not resolve the problem because there will be no such thing as voting in the near future.

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By Michael Shaw, October 8, 2007 at 12:19 pm Link to this comment

US WAR ALERT TO RUSSIA AND WESTERN ALLIES

  http://www.nworeport.com/waralert.htm

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By Michael Shaw, October 8, 2007 at 8:38 am Link to this comment

105403 Ernest I remember some of those assassinations you’re talking about. These were the times I stopped believing all the John Wayne bullshit that we were the good guys. We haven’t been the good guys since WW2. Then we saved the world from fascism only to ultimately become fascist ourselves. No small wonder as to why my 83 year old WW2 Vet buddy asks today, “Why did we fight Hitler in the first place?”

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By Michael Shaw, October 8, 2007 at 8:29 am Link to this comment

105475 Well Cy although it’s true that candidates are not responsible for who latches on to them they can make public announcements denouncing such endorsements. I haven’t seen Ron Paul do that have you? Also what candidates say and what they do are often two different things. Out of all the republicans, I in fact like Ron Paul the best. If only for his stance on this trumped up war. I would feel a whole lot better about him however if he denounced these neo-Nazi’s.

One question though in lieu of lower taxes, how will that create new jobs? Since Bush has lowered them(on the rich) we have 5 million more people in poverty today then we did six years ago. Also local taxes have gone sky high because the feds cut spending to state sponsored programs. This included funding to retrofit our bridges and repave our roadways. Supply side economics didn’t work with Reagan and isn’t working with Bush unless you believe any money at all ever trickles down to the poor. With the free ride the wealthiest of Americans have been getting(in war time to boot) we are losing jobs not gaining them. We are also de-valuating our own currency due to massive debt caused by massive borrowing, just to keep these ridicules tax cuts afloat. While domestic spending curtails out of existence, tax cuts to the rich continue to grow along with the massive debt. We are all suffering from health care to agricultural inspections because of no funding.

I believe it is not government that should be drowned in the bathtub, just the politicians. Our priorities are out of order, not our system. Defense spending is the real problem, along with corporate welfare, not domestic programs. No small wonder why compared to other industrialized nations we are 17th in the world educationally and in last place when it comes to universal health care or in taking care of our people(to help them better take care of themselves), something a great nation must do to remain great.

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By cann4ing, October 8, 2007 at 8:08 am Link to this comment

CY, if you get the chance, you should read Robert O’Harrow, “No Place to Hide.”  One of the primary means by which government has been able to get around existing restrictions on data collection is to outsource it.  Private companies using super-computers and data collection techniques have created systems capable of retrieving complete dossiers on any US citizen in a span of seconds.  Any effort to protect privacy must extend to both government and private corporations.

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By Conservative Yankee, October 8, 2007 at 6:06 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

105368 by Michael Shaw on 10/07 at 11:05 am

“Hey Cy before you consider voting for Ron Paul you might wish to see this.”

What’s the problem, I’m a white guy?”

Serously, folks can not be responsible for who “latches” on top their candidacy.  The Weathermen Supported Eugene McCarthy, and the Hayden Lake crowd supported Ross Perot.  I never heard Ross say anything anti semitic, and never heard Robert espouse vigilantism.

My reasons for supporting Paul are outlined in the website you provided:

Debt and Taxes
Working Americans like lower taxes. So do I. Lower taxes benefit all of us, creating jobs and allowing us to make more decisions for ourselves about our lives. (more…)

American Independence and Sovereignty
So called free trade deals and world governmental organizations like the International Criminal Court (ICC), NAFTA, GATT, WTO, and CAFTA are a threat to our independence as a nation. (more…)

War and Foreign Policy
The war in Iraq was sold to us with false information. The area is more dangerous now than when we entered it. We destroyed a regime hated by our direct enemies, the jihadists, and created thousands of new recruits for them. (more…)

Border Security and Immigration Reform
The talk must stop. We must secure our borders now. A nation without secure borders is no nation at all. It makes no sense to fight terrorists abroad when our own front door is left unlocked. This is my six point plan: (more…)

Privacy and Personal Liberty
The biggest threat to your privacy is the government. We must drastically limit the ability of government to collect and store data regarding citizens’ personal matters. (more…)

Property Rights and Eminent Domain
We must stop special interests from violating property rights and literally driving families from their homes, farms and ranches. (more…)

From ANY political candidate 5 out of 6 ain’t bad…. BUT I feel that I may cross the line and vote Kucinich because I see the health care crisis as the greatest threat to the well being of our country. 

The health care problem eclipses all the problems above combine, and Dennis is the only one with a realistic AND universal answer.  Health care for the “poor” won’t do it. Chris Reeves family going from wealth to near poverty due to health care bills should prove that to all… If not, they are blind!

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By cann4ing, October 7, 2007 at 5:09 pm Link to this comment

Kennedy’s was not the only assassination on U.S. soil where the name “George Bush” surfaced.  On 9/21/76 Virgilio Paz & Dionisio Suarez detonated a remote controlled bomb in DC, killing Salvador Allende’s former defense minister, Orlando Letelier, and American Ronni Moffit, who drowned in her own blood.  Paz & Suarez were connected to the Cuban Nationalist Movement, a small, neo-fascist group based in Miami.  Both men later surfaced as hit men for the Columbia Drug Mafia.  Suarez did a stint with the Contras.

The Letelier assassination was part of Operation Condor, which of course is tied to Agosto Pinochet’s secret police, the DINA.  In 1975, Manuel Sepulveda, the head of the DINA and a CIA surrogate engaged in a series of secret meetings with CIA Dep. Director Vernon Walters before being introduced to the anti-Castro Cubans in Miami by the CIA’s Thomas Clines.

In 1975 the CIA was under investigation by the Church Committee and potentially faced a Justice Department of alleged crimes committed by U.S. officials in Chile.  Richard Helms, along with ITT chairman Richard Green, were implicated.  Helms told a friend that if charged he would drag down Kissinger.  DCI Wm. Colby did the unthinkable.  He began to cooperate with the Congressional investigation. Pres. Ford sacked him, and on the urging of Don Rumsfeld, appointed George H.W. Bush as the new DCI.  Bush promptly made it clear he had no intent on allowing his predecessor’s window into the inner workings of the CIA to remain open.

Eight weeks prior to the Letelier assassination, on 7/26/76, George Landau, the Ambassador to Paraguay, sent DCI Bush a cable passing on what Landau regarded as an extraorinary request by the Paraguayan government to provide US entry visas to two Chilean intelligence officers with Paraguayan passports who claimed they would be meeting with top CIA officials in Washington.  Bush did not send a reply until Aug. 4, telling Landau the CIA “wanted nothing to do with the mission.”  But by then Landau had already issued the visas.

In “Prelude to Terror” Joseph Trento asserts the delay was occasioned by Bush’s assistant, Ted Shackley whom he claims “sat on the cable.”  While that is possible, it is also possible Bush chose to delay the reply’s content to erect a plausible denial.*  This is enhanced by the fact the CIA did nothing to stop the DINA agents, who openly entered the country on Aug. 22, even after the Chilean Embassy notified the CIA of the agents’ arrival in Washington DC.  During the ensuing Justice Department investigation, Bush failed to turn over CIA files and “defended DINA against accusations that it conducted the assassinations.”

*Referencing Iran-Contra testimony, Mark Lane noted:  “Bush routinely keeps a diary of plausible deniability, with the same skill employed by a crooked accountant who maintains two sets of books, one of them cooked.”

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By Michael Shaw, October 7, 2007 at 12:41 pm Link to this comment

W. H. Auden “The Unknown Citizen”


(To JS/07/M/378) This Marble Monument Is Erected by the State)


He was found by the Bureau of Statistics to be

One against whom there was no official complaint,

And all the reports on his conduct agree

That, in the modern sense of an old-fashioned word, he was a saint

For in everything he did he served the Greater Community.

Except for the War till the day he retired

He worked in a factory and never got fired,

But satisfied his employers, Fudge Motors Inc.

Yet he wasn’t a scab or odd in his views,

For his Union reports that he paid his dues,

(Our report on his Union shows it was sound)

And our Social Psychology workers found

That he was Popular with his mates and liked to drink.

The Press are convinced that he bought a Paper every day

And that his reactions to advertisements were normal in every way.

Policies taken out in his name prove that he was fully insured

And his Health-card shows he was once in a hospital but left it cured,

Both Producers Research and High-Grade Living declare

He was fully sensible to the advantages of the Installment Plan

And had everything necessary to the Modern Man,

A phonograph, a radio, a car and a frigidaire.

Our researchers into Public Opinion are content

That he held the proper opinions for the time of year;

When there was peace he was for peace when there was war he went.

He was married and and added five children to the population,

Which our Eugenist says was the right number for a parent of his generation,

And our teachers report that he never interfered with their education.

Was he free? Was he Happy? The question is absurd:

Had anything been wrong, we should certainly have heard.

Illegal Surveillance Programs, Data Mining and the Secret to Becoming like W.S. Auden’s “The Unknown Citizen”
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/163780/illegal_surveillance_programs_data.html

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By Michael Shaw, October 7, 2007 at 12:13 pm Link to this comment

105085 Ernest I caught the gist of what you were saying. What I meant by involvement was that perhaps Haldeman and J.E. Hoover had information and didn’t bother to share it. As we know Hoover hated the Kennedy’s. It wouldn’t surprise me that he might suppress information and allow it to happen, just as Bush may have known of 9/11 and did nothing.

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By Michael Shaw, October 7, 2007 at 12:05 pm Link to this comment

105203 Hey Cy before you consider voting for Ron Paul you might wish to see this.
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php/ron-paul-one-388512.html

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By John Hanks, October 7, 2007 at 8:33 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Rove has put Democratic opponents, like Kennedy, on a terrorist list.  It would be foolish to have a wholesale ban when selected leaders would be enough.  Anything that keeps people from talking to one another and comparing notes is enough.  TV keeps everyone’s nose to the wall.  No politics in the workplace does most of the rest.  They are working on corrupting the net.

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By Conservative Yankee, October 7, 2007 at 6:00 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

105261 by Ernest Canning on 10/06 at 7:10 pm

“I wonder.  Would it really be all that big a leap if the government took the next step and began to bar travel of anyone who criticizes the Bush regime—i.e. 78% of our adult population.”

Or anyone who owns a gun, 70& of the population?
Or anyone who protests ....anything…\?
Or anyone who has friends in say Venezuela or Cuba?

And

because the American sheeple have allowed a document, once used to determine you were a qualified auto driver to morph into a national identity card, (with even an unreadable/with normal credit card scanners/magnetic strip.. (who knows what they put there) they can “exclude” folks with just a swipe.

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By cann4ing, October 6, 2007 at 8:10 pm Link to this comment

Getting back to the Data Mine, on 10/5/07 Democracy Now! revealed that two leading peace activists, Retired Army Col. Ann Wright, who served in Afhganistan, and Code Pink’s Medea Benjamin were denied access into Canada because their names appeared on an FBI-run, international data base.  Wright says Canadian officials told her any time a name appears on the NCIC list, they don’t question it.  (Their “criminal” records entail engaging in non-violent civil disobedience).

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/10/05/1419236

The actions of the Canadian officials was questioned by Olivia Chow, a member of Canada’s parliament who said “peaceful protest is not criminal activity” and that the standards for admission should be decided by the Canadian government and not by a foreign body.

I wonder.  Would it really be all that big a leap if the government took the next step and began to bar travel of anyone who criticizes the Bush regime—i.e. 78% of our adult population.

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By John Hanks, October 6, 2007 at 5:01 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I think that we need to understand that corporate America and its government have been at war with the American public since the civil war.  We will never discover who blew up the Battleship Maine.  Nor will we ever discover the facts about the Lusitania or the Kennedy assassinations.  What we do know, is that their is an organized hidden government at work and it has a way of dealing from the bottom of the deck whenever it suits it.

The real enemy is the corporate class and everything that enriches it.  Without an endless supply of money (largely provided by government), it can do very little.

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By John Borowski, October 6, 2007 at 4:37 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Will a dictator ever hang himself for a monumental crime that he has committed? A bank robber commits a robbery at the bank. The police have a hundred expert investigators that confirm the person the police suspect is the one who robbed the bank. The police find the stolen money at the bank robber’s home. The people at the bank all identify the suspect as the person that robbed the bank. The suspect can’t account for the time the bank was robbed. The finger prints lifted at the bank confirm that the suspect is the one who robbed the bank. The British controlled media tell the public the bank robber is innocent. The bank robber’s family is a power house in this country. They only allow members of his family and relatives to sit on the jury. One year passes, 5 year passes, 10 years pass, and now twenty-five years pass. The criminal passes away and the criminal has never been brought to justice. Does that sound familiar? If it does you are one of the twenty-five percent of intelligent, mature Americans that don’t buy the BS the media feeds you concerning the World Trade Center. Only two things can happen if the real criminals are exposed.  The country falls or the criminals declare a dictatorship. In the mean time the seventy-five percent of dim bulb Americans give them a buffer zone to comfort them.

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Robert's avatar

By Robert, October 6, 2007 at 3:09 pm Link to this comment

Special report

New revelations in attack on American spy ship

Veterans, documents suggest U.S., Israel didn’t tell full story of deadly ‘67 incident

10.02.2007 | The Chicago Tribune
By John Crewdson
Tribune senior correspondent

Bryce Lockwood, Marine staff sergeant, Russian-language expert, recipient of the Silver Star for heroism, ordained Baptist minister, is shouting into the phone.

“I’m angry! I’m seething with anger! Forty years, and I’m seething with anger!”

Lockwood was aboard the USS Liberty, a super-secret spy ship on station in the eastern Mediterranean, when four Israeli fighter jets flew out of the afternoon sun to strafe and bomb the virtually defenseless vessel on June 8, 1967, the fourth day of what would become known as the Six-Day War.

For Lockwood and many other survivors, the anger is mixed with incredulity: that Israel would attack an important ally, then attribute the attack to a case of mistaken identity by Israeli pilots who had confused the U.S. Navy’s most distinctive ship with an Egyptian horse-cavalry transport that was half its size and had a dissimilar profile. And they’re also incredulous that, for years, their own government would reject their calls for a thorough investigation.

“They tried to lie their way out of it!” Lockwood shouts. “I don’t believe that for a minute! You just don’t shoot at a ship at sea without identifying it, making sure of your target!”

Four decades later, many of the more than two dozen Liberty survivors located and interviewed by the Tribune cannot talk about the attack without shouting or weeping.

Their anger has been stoked by the declassification of government documents and the recollections of former military personnel, including some quoted in this article for the first time, which strengthen doubts about the U.S. National Security Agency’s position that it never intercepted the communications of the attacking Israeli pilots—communications, according to those who remember seeing them, that showed the Israelis knew they were attacking an American naval vessel.

The documents also suggest that the U.S. government, anxious to spare Israel’s reputation and preserve its alliance with the U.S., closed the case with what even some of its participants now say was a hasty and seriously flawed investigation.

In declassifying the most recent and largest batch of materials last June 8, the 40th anniversary of the attack, the NSA, this country’s chief U.S. electronic-intelligence-gatherer and code-breaker, acknowledged that the attack had “become the center of considerable controversy and debate.” It was not the agency’s intention, it said, “to prove or disprove any one set of conclusions, many of which can be drawn from a thorough review of this material,” available at http://www.nsa.gov/liberty .

An Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman, Mark Regev, called the attack on the Liberty “a tragic and terrible accident, a case of mistaken identity, for which Israel has officially apologized.” Israel also paid reparations of $6.7 million to the injured survivors and the families of those killed in the attack, and another $6 million for the loss of the Liberty itself.

But for those who lost their sons and husbands, neither the Israelis’ apology nor the passing of time has lessened their grief.

One is Pat Blue, who still remembers having her lunch in Washington’s Farragut Square park on “a beautiful June afternoon” when she was a 22-year-old secretary for a law firm.

Blue heard somebody’s portable radio saying a U.S. Navy ship had been torpedoed in the eastern Mediterranean. A few weeks before, Blue’s husband of two years, an Arab-language expert with the NSA, had been hurriedly dispatched overseas.

As she listened to the news report, “it just all came together.” Soon afterward, the NSA confirmed that Allen Blue was among the missing.

“I never felt young again,” she said.

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=1251

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By Conservative Yankee, October 6, 2007 at 12:34 pm Link to this comment
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105186 by Ernest Canning on 10/06 at 10:12 am

“CY—at last something upon which you and I can agree—that we were lied to from day one about the Kennedy assassination.”

We agree on several things.

The Warren Commission report was a bag of shit (even though Earl Warren was a good honorable man IMHO). The FBI was capable of carrying out assassinations, even of our president, should the need arise (Why did none of the seven presidents Hoover served “under” have the balls to fire him? 

Another place where we are beginning to agree is Dennis Kucinich. I like hie health care plan (all 28 pages) A LOT! and it is the only one I have seen so far that has a real monetary savings. It is truly “universal” and the savings comes entirely from the streamlining and lack of forms and paper.

I’ve been a Ron Paul fan so far, but who knows the Maine primary is five months off, and voters can register on primary day. Got to find out if he is a social service liberal, or if he has some new answers to old problems. Dennis says the right thing on the war, and I’m impressed with the first day in office pledge.

Leaves me wondering if we could ever make textiles in New England again.

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By cann4ing, October 6, 2007 at 11:12 am Link to this comment

CY—at last something upon which you and I can agree—that we were lied to from day one about the Kennedy assassination. 

Lane’s “Plausible Denial” is an evidence-based presentation.  He does not suggest that the FBI was complicit in the plot to assassinate because he has not uncovered evidence of FBI complicity.  He does contend the FBI was complicit in the cover-up because he has evidence of “that” complicity, just as he has presented direct evidence of a CIA/anti-Castro Cuban involvement in the plot to assassinate (especially Ms. Lorenz’s testimony) and just as he presents evidence to debunk the Warren Commission report and which irrefutably shows that the CIA was both active in the cover-up and in launching scurrilous personal attacks on anyone who dared to publish a critique of the Warren Commission report.  (But don’t take my word for it.  Go to your public library and check it out.  Mark Lane, “Plausible Denial:  Was the CIA Involved in the Assassination of JFK” (Thunder’s Mouth Press)(1991)).

Like Lane, I am a lawyer.  While I will listen to theories, I cannot accept them absent supporting evidence.  “Plausible Denial” is a sustained, fact-filled legal presentation that makes for a convincing case that elements within empire’s covert dimension assassinated President Kennedy, including the reasons why that assassination was been carried out.  Over the past 44 years America has failed to confront that body of evidence.  Over the past sixty-plus years America has failed to confront the dastardly deeds of empire’s fascist-like covert dimension carried out in our name.  I believe that much of our nation’s present malaise is attributable to that failure and to the blow-back engendered by the fascists’ efforts to create a “New World Order.”

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By John Borowski, October 6, 2007 at 7:10 am Link to this comment
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One aspect of World War 2 that I have always been puzzled by is where Hitler got the money to build the mightiest arm forces at that time. (I do have my supposition) Ask Reagan if you want to know how much it cost to build the mightiest arm forces today. (How you can ask Reagan, I really don’t know) After World War 1 the Germans had to sell their soul to the allies. They had to pay reparations to the victors. The cost of all of the damage and expenses that occurred during World War 1 had to be paid. As a result of this condition the Germans didn’t have a pot to pee in. A country that doesn’t have a pot to pee in can’t build the mightiest arm forces the world has ever seen in the nineteen thirties. Where did they get the trillions of dollars to build the mightiest arm forces at that time? It was certainly not by German big business because as a result of the loss of World War 1 they didn’t have a pot to urinate in.?????.

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By Conservative Yankee, October 6, 2007 at 7:06 am Link to this comment
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105013 by Ernest Canning on 10/05 at 3:06 pm

“Michael, Lane contends that neither Hoover nor the FBI were involved in the plot to assassinate Kennedy.”

Try7 as we might, I do not think we’ll ever get the truth.  Several self-serving folks have weaved yarns that made them plenty-money, but this only serves to tangle more, an already unfathomable moment.

One thing sure; Anyone who was at or beyond the “age of reason” on that fateful day KNOWS beyond a doubt we were lied to from the first moment.

Another thing that seems lost in History is that JFK stole the 1960 election as surely as Bush stole the last two. I often wonder why no one has ever attempted to tie that fact to the assassination.

BTW I understand Richard Daley is ghost-writing a book about his father.

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By cann4ing, October 5, 2007 at 10:29 pm Link to this comment

Michael Shaw:  After re-reading your posts, I think I need to clarify something.  Lane does not suggest that Haldemann was involved in the Kennedy assassination.  Instead, he quotes from Haldeman’s book in which Haldemann references the instance in which the CIA’s Richard Helms came unglued when Haldemann relayed Nixon’s instructions to tell Helms that he thought Watergate was connected with the Bay of Pigs.  Haldemann stated in his book that afterwords he realized that the Bay of Pigs reference referred to the Kennedy assassination.  Haldemann added, “after Kennedy was killed, the CIA launched a fantastic cover-up” and that, “The CIA literally erased any connection between Kennedy’s assassination and the CIA.”

Recall that Gerald Ford was an obscure Michigan congressman with an undistinguished record until Nixon designated Ford as his vice president, a designation that took place in the wake of the scandal-driven Spiro Agnew resignation and which occurred at the height of the breaking Watergate scandal.  Many have speculated that Nixon held out the carrot of the presidency in order to secure a promise for the presidential pardon that promptly followed Nixon’s resignation.  However, if Haldemann’s assessment is accurate, if the ever-conniving Nixon knew enough about the CIA’s role in the Kennedy assassination to threaten Helms, then it also seems likely that Nixon would have been aware of Ford’s FBI connections while Ford served on the Warren Commission—knowledge that would have allowed Nixon to hold out Ford’s illegal funneling of secret information to DeLoach as the stick that would ensure the pardon.

Finally, during her testimony in the Hunt v. Liberty Lobby case, Marita Lorenz identified Orlando Bosch as one of the individuals accompanying her in the two-car caravan which traveled from Miami to Dallas in Nov. 1963.  Bosch, whose CORU network had been linked to the Contra supply operation in the 1980s, openly took credit for the 1977 bombing of a Cuban civilian airliner.  According to Ricardo Alarcon, Pres. of Cuba’s National Assembly, declassified State Department documents implicate Bosch in the assassination of Orlando Lettelier.  Today, thanks to a presidential pardon from Geo. H. W. Bush, Bosch walks the streets of Miami, a free man, as does Bosch’s alleged co-conspirator, Jorge Posada Carrilles because George W. Bush refuses to honor a Venezuelan extradition request.  (I’ll provide the intriguing links between Geo. H. W. Bush and the Lettelier assassination in a later post).

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By cann4ing, October 5, 2007 at 4:06 pm Link to this comment

Michael, Lane contends that neither Hoover nor the FBI were involved in the plot to assassinate Kennedy.  He contends the CIA set up Oswald precisely because Oswald was a paid FBI informant; that the CIA used this connection “to freeze J. Edgar Hoover into inaction because of fear that his bureau might be terminally embarrassed.”  He asserts that the cover-up within the Warren Commission was not only facilitated by Allen Dulles; that the FBI’s man inside the Commission was Gerald Ford, who illegally passed on top secret information to Hoover’s assistant, Cartha DeLoach, noting that FBI assistance was needed to bring two dissenting Commission members to the FBI’s view that the shots that killed Kennedy had been fired from the sixth floor window of the Texas School Book Depository.

“Plausible Denial” begins by covering a Sept. 1977 debate between Lane and the CIA’s David Atlee Phillips.  In the early segments of the book, Lane thoroughly debunked, as a CIA concocted myth which had been spoon fed to the Warren Commission, the claim that Lee Harvey Oswald had visited the Cuban and Soviet Embassies in Mexico City on Sept. 27 and Oct. 1, 1963.  “Plausible Denial” reveals the content of a secret CIA memo Lane obtained as a result of a lawsuit which directed the CIA’s media assets on how they should impugn the integrity of authors who dissented from the erroneous conclusions of the Warren Commission; Lane, in particular.

Phillips, as the CIA’s former head of intelligence for the Western Hemispher, had been involved in the agency’s attempt to malign Lane for “Rush to Judgment.”  When confronted with the crimes of the agency, an ashen-faced Phillips pleaded for understanding of the difficulty in leading a dual life as a spy.  He regretted “the attempts to destroy Mr. Lane,” then contradicted statements he gave to the Warren Commission and sworn testimony he gave to the House Select Committee on Assassinations:  “Now, I am not in a position today to talk to you about the inner workings of the CIA station in Mexico City…; but I will tell you…there was never a photograph taken of Lee Harvey Oswald in Mexico City…There is no evidence to show that Lee Harvey Oswald visited the Soviet Embassy.”

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By Michael Shaw, October 5, 2007 at 3:21 pm Link to this comment

104974. Well it could be CY. I’ll take your word for it. The information I received said otherwise. Son or brother it makes little difference. Prescott Bush hired him but you’re right, the Dulles’ seem to have invited the phrase “wealthy no good bastards” long before the Bush’s who basically married into their money. No good bastards reigns true for both families however.

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By Conservative Yankee, October 5, 2007 at 1:06 pm Link to this comment
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#104716 by Michael Shaw on 10/04 at 1:43 pm

“104425 Ernest I also note that Alan Welsh Dulles was the son of John Foster Dulles.”

Actually, Alan Walsh Dulles was John Foster Dulles’ younger brother. Their father was Alan Macy Dulles a minister by trade.

The connection to Bush is through Zapata Offshore, and the Dulles family has been in power a long time, longer than the Bush’s. We’re not talking second-rate here.

Grandfather John W. Foster: Was Secretary of State.
Uncle Robert Lansing; Was Secretary of State.
Son Avery Robert Dulles: Teaches at Fordham University, and was the first American priest to be directly appointed a Cardinal.
Other son John W.F. Dulles;  teaches at the University of Texas.

The Dulles family has been a political force in these United States since the administration of Benjamin Harrison.

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By Conservative Yankee, October 5, 2007 at 1:02 pm Link to this comment
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#104716 by Michael Shaw on 10/04 at 1:43 pm

“104425 Ernest I also note that Alan Welsh Dulles was the son of John Foster Dulles.”

Actually, Alan Walsh Dulles was John Foster Dulles’ younger brother. Their father was Alan Macy Dulles a minister by trade.

The connection to Bush is through Zapata Offshore, and the Dulles family has been in power a long time, longer than the Bush’s. We’re not talking armature here.

Grandfather John W. Foster: Was Secretary of State.
Uncle Robert Lansing; Was Secretary of State.
Son Avery Robert Dulles: Teaches at Fordham University, and was the first American priest to be directly appointed a Cardinal.
Other son John W.F. Dulles;  teaches at the University of Texas.

The Dulles family has been a political force in these United States since the administration of Benjamin Harrison.

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By Michael Shaw, October 5, 2007 at 12:50 pm Link to this comment

104758 Wow! That’s all I can say Ernest. Actually I think I did hear of the book, Plausible Denial. I’ll have to check further into that.

I had always suspected the JFK assassination and later his brother Robert was government inspired. I had also heard Hoover knew and let it happened. With guys like Helms, Haldeman, E Howard Hunt who had a fatal plane crash etc, it isn’t hard to believe.

What about G. Gordon Liddy? He’s been entrenched in assassinations and other dirty tricks for most of his life. If he wasn’t involved, nobody was.

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By John Borowski, October 5, 2007 at 5:43 am Link to this comment
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During World War 2 Hitler had a code machine they called “Enigma” that was used in the war. Guess who supplied them with that vital code machine. If you guessed IBM you scored a 3 pointer. The head of IBM at that time was awarded with the civilian’s highest metal of honor for foreigners. This machine was initially used in Germany before the war for insurance purposes. The Allies tried desperately to break this code but failed. Finally, the Polish Intelligence broke the code when they notice people would form similar words together. (Merry+Christmas –Hans+Inga- heil+Hitler etc.)
In the army we were playing war games and I was a scout. Sneaking into the “enemies” lines one night I was discovered by the bad guys. The guard shouted blues, and I replied in the night and he said pass.(An oldie song many years ago). After the “Enigma” was broken the Allied generals knew the plans of Hitler before the German generals did. Finally, Hitler became suspicious and refined the machine to make it more difficult to break. The only way to break ”Enigma” after refinement was to capture it and that is what the Allies did.

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By cann4ing, October 4, 2007 at 5:42 pm Link to this comment

Michael Shaw, if you want to see where the Allen Dulles/Bush connections come full circle, read Mark Lane’s “Plausible Denial.” 

Lane’s basic thesis is that the CIA killed Kennedy, who fired Dulles in the wake of the Bay of Pigs, planned to dismantle the CIA after the 1964 election, end our involvement in Vietnam and enter a rapproachment with Castro’s Cuba.  Lane’s theory was tested in a U.S. District Court where Lane defended a libel action brought against Victor Marchetti and Liberty Lobby, a small publisher which printed a Marchetti article that implicated E. Howard Hunt and a group of CIA-connected, anti-Castro Cubans in the assassination.  Lane’s evidence included the sworn testimony of Marita Lorenz, Castro’s ex-girlfriend who had been recruited into the CIA by Frank Sturgis. 

Lorenz testified she traveled with Sturgis and others by way of a two car caravan from Miami to Dallas.  One of the cars was loaded with weapons.  Shortly after arriving at a Dallas motel on Nov. 21, 1963,  Hunt showed up and handed an envelope full of cash to Stugis.  He left after 45 minutes.  Within an hour, another individual arrived—Jack Ruby!

Lorenz, who had not been provided with the identity of the target of their operation, only knew the operation was “big.”  She was to act as a decoy.  Having second thoughts, she persuaded Stugis to take her to the airport; flew back to Miami.

Hunt’s lawyer asked Lorenz whether she later spoke with Sturgis about the assassination.  She had.  He told her that she “missed the really big one,” adding, “we killed the president that day.  You could have been a part of it—you know, a part of history.  You should have stayed.  It was safe.  Everything was covered in advance.  No arrests, no real newspaper investigation.  It was all covered, very professional.”

A Miami jury returned a verdict for Liberty Lobby.  The jury foreperson’s explanation that they were convinced that the CIA killed Kennedy and that Hunt was a part of it was ignored by the corporate media.  Lane makes a persuasive case that the ensuing CIA cover-up of its involvement was facilitated when Allen Dulles was appointed to the Warren Commission by President Johnson. 

According to Joseph Trento, George H. W. Bush began “doing favors for the CIA” in 1956 after he had moved to Houston and established Zapata-Offshore. The CIA used Zapata-Offshore oil rigs as training areas in advance of the Bay of Pigs invasion.  While Trento suggests Bush’s role was peripheral, circumstantial evidence reflects otherwise.  The name given to the two naval vessesls obtained by Col Prouty for use in the Bay of Pigs invasion were the “Houston” and the “Barbara.”  The top secret code name for the invasion was “Operation Zapata.”  On 11/29/63 J. Edgar Hoover directed a memo to the State Department entitled, “Assassination of President John F. Kennedy November 22, 1963” which revealed that on Nov. 23, 1963 an FBI special agent and a DIA officer briefed “Mr. George Bush of the Central Intelligence Agency.”  When the memo first publicly surfaced in 1988, then VP Bush claimed it was the wrong Bush.  He falsely denied any connection to the CIA prior to being appointed its director by President Ford.

In “The Ends of Power” H.R. Haldemann presents a curious connection between the Kennedy assassination and Watergate.  Seeking CIA protection, Nixon dispatched Haldeman to meet with Richard Helms.  When Helms stonewalled, Haldeman said, “the president asked me to tell you this entire affair may be connected to the Bay of Pigs….”  Helms came unglued, gripping the arms of his chair and shouting there was no connection.  Haldemann observed, “It seems that in all those Nixon references to the Bay of Pigs he was referring to the Kennedy assassination.”

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By Michael Shaw, October 4, 2007 at 3:02 pm Link to this comment

104680 nazilieskill I see the fact homeland security doesn’t even prioritize right wing extremist groups in its quest to quell home born terrorism as falling right in line with Bush and his Marshall Law edict. That and the Pentagon saying it is ready to take over. All it will take is one more big terrorist attack and we’re done.

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By Michael Shaw, October 4, 2007 at 2:51 pm Link to this comment

104425 Speaking of which, check out this little tidbit!  Apparently Prescott Bush hired Dulles in order to conceal some of his Nazi related business practices.
http://www.enter.net/~torve/trogholm/secret/rightroots/dulles.html

http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/02/04/p/05_killing.html

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By Michael Shaw, October 4, 2007 at 2:43 pm Link to this comment

104425 Ernest I also note that Alan Welsh Dulles was the son of John Foster Dulles. I’m beginning to wonder if they aren’t somehow related to the Bush clan. They sure act the same.

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By Michael Shaw, October 4, 2007 at 2:30 pm Link to this comment

104465 Ernest I just viewed the article about the plot to topple Roosevelt. I am thankful for you pointing me to this.

As we know corporate fascism(unfettered capitalism) is very profitable for some. It comes as little surprise that bums like Prescott Bush and other stinking rich despots(Somehow I imagine Henry Ford was probably a co-sponsor)would support such an idea. After all, it was corporate bums just like him who propelled Mussolini and Hitler into power in the first place.

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By Michael Shaw, October 4, 2007 at 1:40 pm Link to this comment

104443 Cy I agree with you. My grandmother was also Jewish (though not a holocaust survivor). I also see all intelligence agencies, regardless as to where they originate in the same light. I also know that many holocaust survivors are appalled by Israel’s treatments of the Palestinians, something I personally abhor.

Where I have problems is when people come out of the woodwork and present pseudo journalists like Piper and Bollyn and the Barnes Review, claiming Israel was responsible for the 9/11 attacks. Now if some legitimate news source could provide a link to tangible evidence, then fine! Otherwise I’ll continue to have skepticism in believing something which comes from neo-Nazi, holocaust denying bigots.

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By John Borowski, October 4, 2007 at 1:31 pm Link to this comment
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Anyone who has read and studied the arguments of a conspiracy (Yes, the right have made the word conspiracy, like Liberals worst than coitus) on the Internet pertaining to the World Trade Center should wonder about these observations. One thing many investigators miss is the two planes that served as back-ups to the two planes that crashed into the World Trade Center. Once the World Trade Center was attacked successfully the other two planes were expendable. One was shot down in Pennsylvania and the other simply disappeared. The hole in the Pentagon would not accommodate a large jet plane. Another conundrum is that Silverstein representing the royalty in Europe and Britain was no dummy when it comes to evaluating real estate. I’m sure he knew the North Tower was damaged (From the truck bomb in 1993); the towers had an asbestos problem too expensive to resolve. The occupancy was a problem from day one. The maintenance expenses sucked all of the profit drawn from the World Trade Center. The NY & NJ Port Authority (The owners of the World Trade Center) were overjoyed that Silverstein wanted to lease their nightmare. There was a possibility that an earthquake or a hurricane would damage the North Tower. Why did he purchase a 100 year lease on the buildings when I’m sure he knew it was a white elephant?

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By Michael Shaw, October 4, 2007 at 1:31 pm Link to this comment

104458 Cy I agree with you! It isn’t our government that is bad, it is those within the ranks of government where the real problems lie. The foundations and principles of our government are just fine, in fact I believe the best in the world. I see the real problems existing in the fact that politicians are great at getting elected and staying in office(where most of their focus lies), but when it comes to actual governance, they are even more clueless than we are. Either that or down right criminals.

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By Michael Shaw, October 4, 2007 at 1:24 pm Link to this comment

104456 Thanks Ernest, I’ll look into it.

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By Michael Shaw, October 4, 2007 at 1:18 pm Link to this comment

Here’s more on JohnFoster Dulles and the United Fruit Company for those who are interested.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Fruit_Company

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Foster_Dulles

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By Michael Shaw, October 4, 2007 at 1:07 pm Link to this comment

104647 Thank you CY for clarifying that. I knew he was entrenched in the Fruit Company scandals. Just got my nations crossed. Sounds to me that he was an all round SOB.

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By www.nazilieskill.us, October 4, 2007 at 12:10 pm Link to this comment
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These filth are the real terrorists.  A very small number of second rate idiots with unlimited power to subvert.

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By Conservative Yankee, October 4, 2007 at 10:21 am Link to this comment
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“wasn’t Dulles also involved in the American Fruit Company”

It was “United Fruit” John Foster Dullas had been partnered in the law firm Sullivan and something, (I forget) which represented United Fruit (called El Pulpo or Octopus in South America)

His brother Alan Dullas (who ran the CIA did approve “regime change” but in Guatemala, not Panama.

Panama was our friend and surrogate in Central America.  We (Under Teddy-bear) formulated the revolution which created that country, by seperating it from Columbia, so we could build the canal Panama’s chief export was…well… nothing during those years The US paid vast sums of money to Panama’s government to keep the locals quiet which they did quite effectively.

United Fruit was a real Eisenhower administration scandal, and worth learning about. United Fruit was to Eisenhower’s White House what Halliburton is to the current White House..

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By Robert, October 3, 2007 at 6:20 pm Link to this comment

Ernest Canning…below is the link/URL that you posted about 3-4 months ago on a different forum where professor Stephen E. Jones was giving a scientific (physics) presentation on 9/11.

Is it true that professor Stephen E. Jones has lost his job at BYU?

I can’t remember if I read it on one the forum’s comments or saw it on a website.

===============================================
Comment #102661 by Cyrena on 9/25 at 11:24 pm

Cyrena…I don’t know if you had a chance to watch this video that was posted by Ernest Canning on another forum several weeks ago. THERMITE is discussed in detail by BYU physics professor, Steven E. Jones.

This video is about 2 hours long, but it is worth while to watch. It is a scientific informative presentation. If you haven’t seen it, you really need to watch it when you have some time to spare.
————————————————————————-

“BYU Physics professor and founder of SCHOLARS FOR 9/11 TRUTH Steven E Jones presents his presentation on the collapse of WTC Buildings 1,2, ... all » and 7 on 9/11. A very informative and scientific presentation that raises serious questions about the official account of the collapse of the World Trade Center Towers and Building 7.”

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=964034652002408586

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By cann4ing, October 3, 2007 at 3:14 pm Link to this comment

Michael Shaw:  The article entitled “Bush’s Grandfather Linked to Fascist Plot” was posted on July 25, 2007 by Truthdig as an “Ear to the Ground” piece and links to a more extended BBC article.  It makes for a rather fascinating read.

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By Conservative Yankee, October 3, 2007 at 2:59 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

What always amazes me is the position:

This government is bad.

Governments have been bad for awhile;\

BUT if you elect (pick a party or man) government CAN work, then we discover that the opposition party/man has big skeletons in their closet too!

Key in “Averill Harriman Union Bank” find out who Prescott’s partner was, and what party he represented FOR A LONG TIME! 

This isn’t about “parties” it is about the inherent flaw in allowing someone else to govern you!

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By Michael Shaw, October 3, 2007 at 2:46 pm Link to this comment

104424 PS Ernest, I also agree with your Israeli/my way or the highway scenario too. In fact it does seem that the Bush administration mimes The right wing Sharon government in many ways. I by no means underestimate the MOSSAD either. But if you read the RICO complaint, Israel claimed it did in fact warn us but that brings us back to the CIA/MOSSAD question.

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By Michael Shaw, October 3, 2007 at 2:40 pm Link to this comment

104424 Well I think Bush/Cheney knew it was going to happen and then let it happen to realize his PNAC(New Pearl Harbor) agenda. I see it as obvious that Tenant(CIA) was somehow involved in it too. I see all of them lying about it from Bush on down to Rice, Powell and every last one of them. That, “We had no reason to suspect they would use planes for bombs,” spew was precious. In fact almost laughable!

I have troubles with Bush actually planning the attack. But either way it is still an act in treason.

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By Michael Shaw, October 3, 2007 at 2:23 pm Link to this comment

104425 Hey Ernest wasn’t Dulles also involved in the American Fruit Company debacle and war with Panama too? Didn’t his brother in fact own the FC and when Panama’s freely elected president wanted to buy unused land back from them for the value the FC company said it was worth for tax purposes(evasion), Dulles called them communist subversives and started that war? The Panamanians needed land to farm and the FC was ripping off Panama in land taxes for years. I know he also defended Nazi’s after the war. I also vaguely recall that in the 1960’s and after recruiting Nazi’s into the CIA, that’s when the torturing and killing began in West Germany and a witness, an American Intelligence officer who was appalled by this situation and told some folks what happened was later found dead just outside of his twenty story window in NYC. It was ruled a suicide of course!

As for the Prescott Bush conspiracy to overthrow Roosevelt, I’d like to get more information on that. We already know he was doing business with the Nazi’s in wartime and put out of business by the Trading with the Enemy Act. I wasn’t aware of this coup attempt. Sounds like reasonable grounds(among others) to have condemned him for treason.

This entire Bush Dynasty is like bad weather that never leaves us. With all their dirt and underhandedness, they keep slipping away from the arm of justice. I think much of that goes back to who rules and who really rules, otherwise the whole lot would be swinging from a flagpole!

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By Conservative Yankee, October 3, 2007 at 2:21 pm Link to this comment
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Michael Shaw on 10/03 at 11:25

The only problem I have with your logic is you say CIA/Nazis, or MOSSAD. I suggest that this is the same group.

When questioning my grandmother who spent most of the 40’s in Dachau, about what the Israelis were doing to the Palestinians in the 70’s, she said: “We couldn’t spend all that time with the Nazis, and learn nothing.”

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By cann4ing, October 3, 2007 at 1:29 pm Link to this comment

re comment 104415 by Michael Shaw.  There is a sense in which the CIA may be seen as a stepchild of Nazi Germany.  As Joseph Trento noted in “Prelude to Terror,” its founder, Allen Dulles, had done business with the Nazis before WW II.  Dulles served in the OSS in Berne, Switzerland.  From 1945 to 1947, preceding the creation of the CIA, Dulles ran his own private and entirely illegal intelligence service in which he “began a massive ex-Nazi recruitment campaign, using a State Department refugee office as a front.”  Trento suggests that Dulles saw this as a necessary means to counter the trheat of the KGB, then known as the NKVD.

Former Congresswoman Elizabeth Holzman (D.NY) has a very different view.  By “using Nazi war criminals, we may have exposed ourselves…because these people…had blood on their hands and were liable to blackmail by the Russians….And, secondly, these people had an agenda.  They wanted to keep their necks from being cut off.  And so, sometimes they would give us biased intelligence.”  Amongst these Nazi recruits was Reinhardt Gehlen, Hitler’s former chief of intelligence on the eastern front, who, under the Americans, set up a West German spy network that employed at least one hundred Nazi war criminals.  “This apparatus was totally penetrated by the Russians.”

As revealed by Alfred McCoy in “A Question of Torture,” American intelligence recruitment was not limited to use of war criminals as spies.  It included German scientists “who had directed Nazi experiments into human physiology and psychology” and whose early research would lay the groundwork for CIA torture techniques.

Then there was Dulles’s recruitment of U.S. business leaders who had ties to the Nazi regime, including Prescott Bush, the president’s paternal grandfather, who recently was tied to an early 30s fascist plot to overthrow Roosevelt.  It took a bit longer than Prescott and his fellow plotters imagined, but it appears that his grandson has been able to move this nation dangerously close to his twisted dream of a fascist America.

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By Douglas Chalmers, October 3, 2007 at 1:18 pm Link to this comment

#104419 by Michael Shaw on 10/03 at 12:00 pm: “...I think however that most Americans really had no idea of what we’ve been doing abroad. This makes it even harder for them to comprehend when it happens here.

Look at 9/11. Most people thought, “Why are they doing this to us? Meanwhile the same groups who have been exploiting people abroad are profiting the most from the war on terror….”

The difference with 9/11, though, was that it really wasn’t “they” who were “doing this to us”, Michael. “WE” (you know who) did it to “us”. Perhaps with a little outside help but it was basically an inside job.

That really confuses people because (a)as you say, they hardly have a clue what the US really gets up to internationally, but (b) there is this almost sub-conscious ‘gut-level’ feeling of “why” because there really is a question that needs to be asked.

Sadly, from there, people were wheeled around and told what to think and how to think. It was all directed and stage-managed for them. “Its us or them” (a real Israeli attitude to Arabs if you check) and an unreasoning “You’re either with us or against us!”  hurt feeling outburst opportunistically layered into it all.

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By Michael Shaw, October 3, 2007 at 1:00 pm Link to this comment

104412 Hi Douglas. Absolutely. I think however that most Americans really had no idea of what we’ve been doing abroad. This makes it even harder for them to comprehend when it happens here.

Look at 9/11. Most people thought, “Why are they doing this to us? Meanwhile the same groups who have been exploiting people abroad are profiting the most from the war on terror.

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By Michael Shaw, October 3, 2007 at 12:53 pm Link to this comment

104297 John please refer to my post 104409 Also at least as far as recruiting Nazi’s to provide vital information about the Soviets, it is my understanding they really provided us with little. We put people like Klaus Barbie on the CIA payroll(who then began a world wide cocaine distribution program) and hid other Nazi’s from justice, but beyond that we gained very little important information.

I think you’re right of course as far as favoring extreme elements of the right as opposed to the left. The same could be said of Miami Cubans, some of whom were CIA sponsored terrorists who after committing severe acts in terror, like blowing up a passenger jet leaving Venezuela, today roam freely in our countryside. We ignore extradition papers from Venezuela or Cuba to apprehend and try these people. This indicates, just as in the neo nazi’s that in the war on terror we discriminate. If you’re a right winger doing our bidding you go free but it’s OK to terrorize nations who don’t play ball with us. Let’s not forget all the Iran-Contra’s or the members of Chilean death squads we brought back here either.

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By Douglas Chalmers, October 3, 2007 at 12:32 pm Link to this comment

#104409 by Michael Shaw on 10/03 at 11:18 am: “...What shit we’ve done for decades overseas in places like Chile we are now doing here….”

As you think, so it becomes….....

So many think that they are so clever that whatever they do will not come back to them - in some way.

“Action and reaction are opposite and equal” is thus proven to be the equivalent “do to others as you would have them do to you”.

Cast your mouldy bread upon the waters…...

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By Michael Shaw, October 3, 2007 at 12:25 pm Link to this comment

Conservative Yankee I apologize. The post I directed to John was meant to go to you! 104409

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By Michael Shaw, October 3, 2007 at 12:18 pm Link to this comment

104312 Well John I see this clear and obvious omission on the part of homeland security concerning neo-nazi’s, as well as their aggressive assaults on minor, relatively harmless groups as another cog in the chaos strategy. They want these neo-nazi’s running around and creating havoc so they can justify and enhance the continual onslaughts on our civil liberties. The more chaos the better and the more fear the better. This keeps people worried and guessing and more importantly, less likely to question the actions of government in “keeping us safe!” The other side of the coin of course is in locking up relatively harmless people on the fringe left for life to stifle any ideas in activism or dissent. The same could be said of the assault by Oakland city police(thugs) who fired wooden bullets on a peaceful crowd during that dock worker’s strike 6 years ago. None of that was necessary but when you get shot in the ass with a wooden bullet you’ll think twice before you protest again. I see it just as Naomi Klein describes. What shit we’ve done for decades overseas in places like Chile we are now doing here.

What I also find interesting and disturbing are that elements of these same right wing groups are involved to a degree in the 9/11 truth movement and seem to be the ones who for the most part are presenting “evidence” that MOSSAD was responsible for 9/11. Now maybe to some degree they were. We know about those hi-fivers for example. But the problems I have with that are that most of the information pointing in this direction are being presented by guys like Piper or Bollyn and the Barnes Review, who are all neo-nazi’s and holocaust deniers. Also if you’ve ever seen the RICO/Rodriguez complaint which actually came from the 9/11 for truth movement, it stipulates that Israel did in fact warn us of 50-200 al Qaeda operatives in the US and of imminent attack, something the CIA denies. So at least in this case it seems to boil down to whom should you believe, the CIA(and the neo-naz’s) or MOSSAD.  What it really boils down to, at least as far as I see it is whose ass should be left blowing in the wind, Bush’s or Israel’s? The fact Bush is doing next to nothing to quell these neo-nazi’s groups might in fact point to the answer.

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By Conservative Yankee, October 3, 2007 at 5:47 am Link to this comment
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104269 by Michael Shaw on 10/03 at 12:31 am

“...John one thing I find disturbing is that in a recent report it showed that the department of homeland security placed animal activist groups on the top of their domestic terror agenda, leaving out every right wing racist, neo Nazi group in the nation. Not one of those made the list in their priorities, even though animal activist groups have cause no human fatalities and since the Oklahoma City bombing, more than 60 acts in attempted right wing terror have taken place since then.”

I saw that also, and it is indeed interesting. Hereabouts it’s “EARTH_FIRST” that gets all the terror ink.  They charged a guy in Bangor with “international terrorism” because he painted signs on Domatar’s buildings (that’s a Canadian paper company doing business in Maine)  and then traveled to Fredericton New Brunswick to protest their operations there.  NO ONE was hurt, and damage to papercompany property was placed at 1 to 3K but he faces 25 years in jail if convicted.

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By John Borowski, October 3, 2007 at 4:27 am Link to this comment
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One thing most people don’t know is that after World War 2 ship loads of Nazis were transported to New Brunswick, NJ by the government. I assume the purpose was to give them safe-harbor primarily because they were anti-communism to the extreme. Most likely many of their progeny still live in New Brunswick and surrounding towns. I believe the government favors extreme right far more than Do-Good Liberals (Good is bad). This group did help the government by supplying vital information concerning the Soviet Union and could help them some where down the road.

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By Michael Shaw, October 3, 2007 at 1:31 am Link to this comment

104107 John one thing I find disturbing is that in a recent report it showed that the department of homeland security placed animal activist groups on the top of their domestic terror agenda, leaving out every right wing racist, neo Nazi group in the nation. Not one of those made the list in their priorities, even though animal activist groups have cause no human fatalities and since the Oklahoma City bombing, more than 60 acts in attempted right wing terror have taken place since then.

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By Michael Shaw, October 3, 2007 at 1:08 am Link to this comment

100078 Absolutely Ernest. It typifies the definition of this administration. Only they would hire a convicted felon to oversea such an operation. As I recall, Hitler also placed felons in positions of power. Orwellian indeed! Thanks for refreshing my memory! Also I’m sorry for the late response. I’ve been wasting my time in Fisk’s loony magnet, questioning 9/11.


100014 And Scott, apologies to you also. It sounds like you have a propensity to open source government. I did a bit of reporting on that(before Assignment Zero pulled my story). Was once interviewed about it too by Christian Einfeldt from the Digital Tipping Point, a free open source video archive. Have you ever heard of Silona Bonewald and the League of Technical Voters? Or Dan Zarrella and his Open Source Political Party?

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By Michael Shaw, October 3, 2007 at 12:35 am Link to this comment

IE “As to playing games, only a child could miss the games played by EVERYONE on this board.  games of intellectual prowess, but games none the less.”

Hey Ernest and CY, I wouldn’t call it intellectual prowess, but if you guys wish to see some game play, take a gander at the idiots in “Questioning 9/11 with Caution”. These folks believe the “truth police” are spying on them and deleting their posts, that Inherit the Wind and I are agents of the MOSSAD, that mind bombs brought down tower 7 and that “The Barnes Review,” is a balanced, unbiased news source! If it wasn’t for Inherit, I would have lost my sanity!

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By John Borowski, October 2, 2007 at 12:50 pm Link to this comment
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People, if you want to know what these bible-totting Republicans (Aka Conservative right-wingers) know about you. Information they will use when they openly declare a dictatorship in this country. Dial in to Public-Records-Now.com. Unfortunately, it isn’t free. It could tell you more about yourself than what you know.

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By Conservative Yankee, October 2, 2007 at 12:20 pm Link to this comment
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104073 by Ernest Canning on 10/02 at 10:18 am

“If you want to play these games, CY, best try to find another, less educated paper.  Instead of an intellectual discourse on the ramifications of your personal rejection of res publica, you engaged in an ad hominem attack, suggesting that my level of writing would not even meet the rudimentary standards of a college course.  You suggest that I know little about you, yet you make rather startling assumptions that show you know “nothing” about me.  I received a BA in political science (cum laude) at UCLA, an MA in political science (4.0 gpa) and a JD (4th in a class of 277).  While you were acquiring your “conservatism” from the cutting floors of textile mills, I was receiving my first-hand education in the impact of U.S. imperialism in the Central Highlands of Vietnam.”

One great thing about the internet is you can claim anything. Real free speech. Funny though, no one was a “vet” in the Seventies, and now everyone was in Vietnam.  I’m not saying you were or weren’t, it is just real strange the way these things go.

As to playing games, only a child could miss the games played by EVERYONE on this board.  games of intellectual prowess, but games none the less. 

You say I engaged in an “ad hominem(sic) attack”  I suggest that my reply was both relevant and considered, and that even if (as you suggest) it was an attack, it was mild by the standards I have witnessed here (on truthdig’s many boards). No vile language, no discussing your mother, and no junior high put-downs.

Actually, I said NOTHING at all about you except that your “intellectual dialogue” was in fact a discussion, and that to be a dialogue it had to meet some standards….which it did not.

There was a girl in my Class at Clark (years ago) she had a 4.0 average (for her B.S. in education) the day after graduation she leaped to her death from the Old Ansonia Hotel, turned out she had been on speed for two terms. I’m not real impressed with grades.

You are one of the few people on this board with which I choose to banter. I like a challenge, and I also have some (very few) liberal friends.

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By cann4ing, October 2, 2007 at 11:18 am Link to this comment

If you want to play these games, CY, best try to find another, less educated paper.  Instead of an intellectual discourse on the ramifications of your personal rejection of res publica, you engaged in an ad hominem attack, suggesting that my level of writing would not even meet the rudimentary standards of a college course.  You suggest that I know little about you, yet you make rather startling assumptions that show you know “nothing” about me.  I received a BA in political science (cum laude) at UCLA, an MA in political science (4.0 gpa) and a JD (4th in a class of 277).  While you were acquiring your “conservatism” from the cutting floors of textile mills, I was receiving my first-hand education in the impact of U.S. imperialism in the Central Highlands of Vietnam.

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By John Borowski, October 2, 2007 at 11:17 am Link to this comment
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One of the myriad reasons I would not vote for the Republicans (Aka Conservative right-wingers) is because they put this country in intensive care. The country is in such bad shape and Bush’s popularity is at an all time low, they try to disassociate from him and show pictures of Bush and Clinton smiling together. If you think their track record is bad you ain’t seen nothing yet. If you vote, you are insulting your dignity and intelligence. The elections are a fraud rigged by the Republicans (Aka Conservatives right-wingers) and the criminals that work with them. Kerry called them crooks and criminals. If I was a crook or criminal, I would be insulted by that remark because I’m not half as bad as they are. If I did vote in an election that was honest, I would vote for the mythical devil long before I would vote for the Republicans (Aka Conservatives right-wingers). Churchill stated that after a 5 minute talk with the average American, he knows why freedom democracy will never work. You look at the track record of the Republicans (Aka Conservative right-wingers); most of their doings are against the ninety percent of the American people and to the benefit of the extreme rich. Why would any intelligent American vote for the Republicans (Conservative right-wingers) when they are emptying your baby’s milk bottle (At least the ninety percent of us). If I was the intelligent 10 percent of the obscene rich Americans, I would understand why I’m voting for the Republicans (Conservative right-wingers).

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By Conservative Yankee, October 2, 2007 at 5:24 am Link to this comment
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103884 by Ernest Canning on 10/01 at 4:25 pm

“Hmmm.  CY attended college.  How impressive!”

A typical liberal Believes anyone who identifies himself as a “conservative” must be a knuckle-dragging illiterate that’s why the liberal species is going the way of the Dinosaur. Never underestimate your adversary. 

“A man not a liberal at 20 has no heart”
“A man not a conservative by 60 has no head”

Sir Winston Churchill

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By cann4ing, October 1, 2007 at 5:25 pm Link to this comment

Hmmm.  CY attended college.  How impressive!

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By Conservative Yankee, October 1, 2007 at 5:44 am Link to this comment
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103673 by Ernest Canning on 9/30 at 3:41 pm

I don’t know you well enough to “be offended” by anything you say.

I have been exposed to many arguments (like yours) which mention (without supporting quotes) “papered experts” and then use the names and general mindsets of these experts to support concepts designed by the new thesis writer.  In the college I attended, the paper is returned without grade, and a re-write is demanded.

The professor would demand a definition of “greed” as used in the paper, as well as some connection to the subject being studied or critiqued. You have shown no dictionary definition of “greed” on my part. I am “parsimonious” NOT greedy. (by Webster)

I believe your mistake may be attempting to “classify” all ideas, but having fewer than the optimum number of boxes. Your reference to “right wing think tanks” is amusing. I got my “conservatism” on the cutting floors of the Amoskeag and Essex textile mills, not from some ideologue. Your thinking seems to have placed me with “Fox conservatives” I don’t own a television. There’s a huge difference between “conservatives” But we’ve been there before.

Try this:

All bad contains some good,
all good retains some evil.

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By cann4ing, September 30, 2007 at 4:41 pm Link to this comment

Sorry, CY, that you feel my post was based on “assumption, innuendo and unsupported opinion.”  Much of what I posted are the observations about the conservative mindset provided by a renouned historian, Kevin Phillips, who backs them up with concrete examples, and, from a different angle, by George Lakoff, who teaches linquistics and cognitive science at UC Berkley.  Though Milton Friedman may represent the extreme in “purest” capitalist thinking, the irrational policies that have emerged from the Bush regime are the logical outgrowth of Friedman’s vice-into-virtue philosphy and the rejection by conservatives, like yourself, of res publica.  It was that rejection, so clearly stated in your previous responses to Doug Chalmers that led to my last post.  The fact that you reject res publica as utopian only serves to underscore the underlying premise of your conservatism—the same belief exhibited by Friedman that greed is the foundation of society and that there is some type of moral depravity in a government that would actually serve the interests of the many as opposed to the already privileged few. 

I am not at all surprised, then, by your taking offense to my observations.  To the contrary, your response provides verification for my observation that the gap between your thinking and Mr. Chalmers (and mine) cannot be bridged.

Finally, as I mentioned the last time you and I communicated, I am always amused by the assertion that fiscal responsibility is the sole province of conservatism.  It is but one of the many lies maintained by the Think Tanks of America’s hard-right.  Fiscally responsible conservatives differ only with fiscally responsible progressives on the underlying purpose of government, to wit:  whether government exists to serve the common interest.  Unlike you, I do not see striving for such a government, even as the many suffer under the presently corrupt, fascist regime, as merely a utopian dream but as the true, if yet to be realized goal embodied in the founding documents of this nation.

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By Conservative Yankee, September 30, 2007 at 10:23 am Link to this comment
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103619 by Ernest Canning on 9/30 at 8:44 am

“Doug, the gap between how you and CY think cannot be bridged.”

We agree on something… But the rest of your post is assumption, innuendo, and unsupported opinion.

By the way, when my “free market” ventures went south,(In 1987)I washed dishes at night in the TickTock diner on Route 46. So I guess your blanket statement may not have all the merit you place on it. I know many many New Englanders who wouldn’t take a dime from the government if they were starving in the dead of winter. Many people around here are fully qualified to accept food stamps, but they wouldn’t do it. They know others like them (because as you point out the rich pay taxes-lite) will have to pay.  It’s (INHO) a downhill slide, PARTICULARLY (again as you mention) that the jobs are going away, the war is costing a fortune, and we’re paying for everything on a credit card.

I hear what you are saying…. the Country could be a better place. Nice dream… hope it happens, in the meantime I must live in the current reality, keep me and mine fed, clothed, warm,and educated, so they won’t be a burden on others.  That’s my number one concern.  My friends & neighbors are next, then my town, and finely my county.  That’s it… that’s all I have.

I’ll leave creating utopia for you guys with all the answers.

....AND, this particular conservative is as opposed to spending in Iraq as he is to throwing money at people who are fully able to work for it.

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By cann4ing, September 30, 2007 at 9:44 am Link to this comment

Doug, the gap between how you and CY think cannot be bridged.  It is reflected by the following three quotes:

“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much, it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.”—President Franklin D. Roosevelt.

“The greatest challenge we face is the growing gap between the rich and poor people on earth.”—President Jimmy Carter.

“More than anything else, I want to see the United States a country where someone can get rich.”—President Ronald Reagan.

Milton Friedman is the ultimate embodiment of the conservative thinking to which CY ascribes.  Kevin Phillips referred to Friedman’s line of thought as a “vice-into-virtue” theology. “To Friedman, greed was the basis of society.  The challenge of social orginization, he said, was to ‘set up an arrangement under which greed will do the least harm:  capitalism is that kind of system.’...He dismissed the idea of res pulica—a public interest apart from the individual and group self-interest.”

Phillip’s reference to this upside-down thinking as a “theology” is mirrored by George Lakoff’s observation that the notion that wealth is a sign of moral superiority “is explicit in forms of Calvinism, where worldly goods are a reflection of righteousness.”  “The rich (who are disciplined and talented enough and who have worked hard enough to become rich) deserve their wealth and the poor (either through lack of industry or talent) deserve their poverty.”

The gap between laissez faire myth and reality is as stark as the growing gap between the present wealthiest one percent of America and everyone else where, by 1999, the net worth of just three individuals, Bill Gates, Paul Allen & Warren Buffet, was larger than the gross domestic product of the world’s 41 poorest nations and their 550 million people.  In today’s upside-down America, ostensibly “public” institutions have been increasingly perverted into tools of wealth disparity, as wealth has devised one scheme after another to insure that, from the perspective of the working and middle classes, things will only get worse.

Conservatives who scream “socialism” at every program designed to help the whole of our people are the first to hold out their hands when one of their so-called “free market” ventures go south, e.g. the S & L bailout.  Through privatizing schemes, these hypocrites have perverted government into a venture-capitalist partner which assumes all the risk as they extract “our” public wealth—witness Iraq, where every ten days, $2 billion flows out of our national treasury and into the coffers of Halliburton, Blackwater and the other war profiteers—at the added cost of an Iraqi death every ten minutes and the death of an American soldier every ten hours.  Indeed, as it relates to the present article, it is noteworthy that much of the data mining was outsourced to the private telecommunications industry.  Our focus on the civil liberties aspect ignores the question of how much that industry has profited from its partnership with the NSA.

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By Conservative Yankee, September 30, 2007 at 8:42 am Link to this comment
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103596 by Douglas Chalmers on 9/30 at 5:17 am

“Why criticize me, CY? The true concept of “community” is rather thin on the ground in actual fact. For some, even their family would leave them starve. For some others, its “I’m alright, buddy” and for some more its “f@%k off!” That’s why a social security system is necessary.”

So what your saying is that these people’s families and friends tell them to “fuck off” and so the rest of us who don’t know these folks must support them?

How come we don’t get to tell them to “fuck off” we didn’t even have the fun of creating them.

Maybe we should let them starve and strengthen the heard?

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By Douglas Chalmers, September 30, 2007 at 6:17 am Link to this comment

#103591 by Conservative Yankee on 9/30 at 4:49 am: “...A typical liberal reply.  I’m sure you know what an incredibly easy life I’ve led…”

Why criticize me, CY? The true concept of “community” is rather thin on the ground in actual fact. For some, even their family would leave them starve. For some others, its “I’m alright, buddy” and for some more its “f@%k off!” That’s why a social security system is necessary.

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By Conservative Yankee, September 30, 2007 at 5:49 am Link to this comment
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103573 by Douglas Chalmers on 9/30 at 1:46 am

“CY??? See what happens when you have ‘needs’ one day, too, then…...”

A typical liberal reply.  I’m sure you know what an incredibly easy life I’ve led, and if not I’m sure you have a plan (financed by others of course) which would make it soo much better.

I have something far better than a stranger based welfare system. I have friends & family who work together without the “give and take” thing getting too lopsided.  It’s called “community” something you folks have attempted to destroy with your gargantuan centralized government give-a-ways.

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By Douglas Chalmers, September 30, 2007 at 2:46 am Link to this comment

#103485 by Conservative Yankee on 9/29 at 12:50 pm: “...OOPS, there my scrooge slipped out again…... My compassion for the other guy ends after my responsibility not to burden him with my problems or my bills….”

Oh well, I guess that you are just a “scrooge” on compassion, huh, CY??? See what happens when you have ‘needs’ one day, too, then…...

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By Conservative Yankee, September 29, 2007 at 1:50 pm Link to this comment
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103462 by Douglas Chalmers on 9/29 at 11:35 am

“Let the rest who worship bank balances do the grumbling, ha ha!”

I don’t “worship” bank balances, BUT I am tired of having the “good god-fearing-majority” tell me I MUST support people I have never met in the great American trailer-park. (OOPS, there my scrooge slipped out again) People tell me there are jobs out there which Americans won’t do.  I guess there really are some people who won’t do these jobs, BUT If I was at the point where I had to ask strangers for money, I sure can’t think of a job I wouldn’t do….

My compassion for the other guy ends after my responsibility not to burden him with my problems or my bills. 

....and US banks don’t get my money…1.5 percent interest or even 5% on certificates of deposit is paltry. Canada (One Canadian Buck equals 99 US cents this morning)pays 10 to 12% on simple savings and retains .005 as non-resident tax. US tax of foreign investment is zero to 10K. this includes bank accounts

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By Douglas Chalmers, September 29, 2007 at 12:35 pm Link to this comment

#103399 by Conservative Yankee on 9/29 at 4:52 am: “...So your right. I’m NOT a “compassionate conservative” .....guess that’s what happens to one’s “compassion” when they begin paying bills they didn’t incur….”

You get to pay anyway - so you might as well hold onto your “compassion” as well. It has some value above dollars and by being a nice guy you stay happy. Let the rest who worship bank balances do the grumbling, ha ha!

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By Conservative Yankee, September 29, 2007 at 5:52 am Link to this comment
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103294 by John Borowski on 9/28 at 1:32 pm

On Credit cards and sub-prime.

Actually when the poor don’t pay, the taxpayer pays.

Once the people who paid monthly were a no profit margin (or as you say “deadbeat”) now with a retailer charge on each purchase, and that being a minimum of .50 the CC companise are doing fine… and with our “conservative” president spending even more money to bail out folks who can’t balance a check book ewe’ll take another hit next year.

So your right. I’m NOT a “compassionate conservative”
guess that’s what happens to one’s “compassion” when they begin paying bills they didn’t incur.

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By John Borowski, September 28, 2007 at 2:32 pm Link to this comment
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Which are the darlings of credit card issuers, the people who pay their bill every month or the poor that will default on their monthly payments? Wrong, it is the poor that are loved by the companies that issue credit cards. The credit card companies refer to the people that pay in full every month as dead-beats. The reason for this is because of late penalties the credit card companies make far more profit from the poor than from the dead-beats. Most of the poor will pay what they owe plus late penalties even if they are forced to steal milk from their baby’s milk bottle. The money lenders falsely believed that if it works in credit cards it will work in sub-prime housing. The thing that they didn’t consider was there is a big difference in $250 and $250,000. When the poor got in trouble with sub-prime housing payments there wasn’t enough milk in their baby’s milk bottle to pay for the late payments.

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By John Borowski, September 27, 2007 at 4:33 am Link to this comment
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Isn’t it sad, but amusing that the telecommunication giants offend and attack your basic rights to privacy? At the same time they offer expensive packages to protect your basic privacy on the Internet.

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By Scott, September 13, 2007 at 11:23 am Link to this comment

I didn’t say wire the people I said wire the government. In other words subject the government to a ‘tyranny’ of Little Brother.

As I’ve said, the lobbyists will hate it.

I don’t want to torture politicians I just want to keep an eye on them.

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By cann4ing, September 12, 2007 at 9:24 pm Link to this comment

Scott, it is but a small step from our being wired so that our leaders are aware of what we are thinking to the Orwellian nightmare (“1984”) in which people are imprisoned and tortured for “thoughtcrime.”  Thanks, but no thanks.

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By Scott, September 12, 2007 at 7:21 pm Link to this comment

I think what might work is a political party whose members volunteer to oufit themselves 24/7 with a camera, a microphone, and a high speed wirless modem. All we’d need is a monitor, a keyboard and mouse and software that lets us monitor our representatives and that collects and compiles our individual thoughts and opinions about issues, into a poll-like format that the representative can see in real-time.

This way, a lobbyist will be indirectly lobbying the representatives constituents. They’ll hate it.

I’d be willing to triple a wired representative’s salary to offset their loss of secrecy. I don’t think we should try to force this system on our present politicians, they’d probably carpet-bomb us for even talking about it.

Apparently they already do this sort of thing on TV reality shows all the time. All the technology we need to enslave our government is on the shelf right now.

In the meantime, you are using GhostSurf I hope?

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By cann4ing, September 12, 2007 at 4:38 pm Link to this comment

Scott & Michael Shaw:  The reason surveillance is a one-way affair is explained by the symbol chosen by Admiral and convicted Iran/Contra felon John Poindexter for his “Total Information Awareness” program—a pyramid, topped by an all-seeing eye and bearing the inscription, Scienter Est Potentia—Latin for “knowledge is power.”

Obviously when Poindexter proposed “Total Information Awareness” he did not have in mind a thoroughly informed citizenry.  The Bush/Cheney regime’s preoccupation with surveillance is accompanied by a pathological quest for secrecy. 

The reason is revealed in a passage from George Orwell’s “1984” in which the protaganist Winston Smith is being tortured inside the Ministry of Love by the burly inner party member, O’Brien. 

“‘Now tell me why we cling to power.  What is our motive?’...Winston did not speak for another moment of two.  A feeling of weariness overwhelmed him.  The faint, mad gleam of enthusiasm had come back to O’Brien’s face.  He knew in advance what O’Brien would say…‘You are ruling over us for our own good,’ [Winston] said feebly.  ‘You believe that human beings are not fit to govern themselves, and therefore’—[Winston] started and almost cried out.  A pang of pain had shot through his body.  O’Brien had pushed the lever of the dial up to thirty-five.  ‘That was stupid, Winston, stupid!’ he said…‘Now, I will tell you the answer to my question.  It is this.  The Party seeks power entirely for its own sake.  We are not interested in the good of others; we are interested solely in power.  Not wealth or luxury or long life or happiness; only power, pure power.’”

A maniacal and ruthless drive for unlimited power lies at the core of the Bush/Cheney regime.  With executive orders now in place that would permit Bush to declare a “national emergency” in the event of a new domestic “terrorist incident” leading to the possibility of a putch in which martial law would be declared leading a “suspension” of the electoral process. 

The question before us is not simply the degree to which NSA eavesdropping capabilities leave no place to hide but whether those who have gone to such lengths to erect a lawless “Unitary Executive.” and who could potentially face future war crimes prosecution if they left office, are prepared to now surrender that power based on the constitutional limitations as to their term in office?  Recall that dubya referred to the U.S. Constitution as “just a piece of paper.”

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By Scott, September 12, 2007 at 11:06 am Link to this comment

Michael Shaw asks

Meanwhile who in the hell is watching them?

Precisely.

What we need is a government that’s wired to the people instead of the way around, like the opposite of the Borg. Politicians and senior government officials should be physically hardwired to the Internet so we can log on, monitor what they are doing and provide feedback (our opinions on issues and policy) through interactive software.

Like Orwell’s Big Brother but with the Telescreens aimed the other way.

We have the technology to collectively drive our government around by joystick and keyboard but we’re literally still using a political system that was designed in the days of horses and buggies. Ever wonder where the term riding came from? Representative boundary’s were basically defined by the distance a rider on horseback could convey information in the span of a day. The Internet, not to mention electricity, changes all that.

I think a critical mass of people even just thinking in this direction could cause a change in the relationship between the governed and the government.

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By DavidJames, September 10, 2007 at 5:55 pm Link to this comment

99410 Michael Shaw

“encryption is an open invitation to the feds that something bad is going on and they have other avenues, like seizing your computer or investigating your financial statements etc. Encryption does not hide the source of an email.”

This is true, but privacy and anonymity are different things.  Encryption will give you communication privacy and eliminate the governments ability to spy on the communication stream.  There are ways to get anonymity as well(GhostSurf or Tor), but the electronic spying addressed by Onnesha is electronic spying on the communication stream, not breaking and entering or sneak and peak. 

The free IP phone Skype uses industrial strength 256 bit AES encryption for voice, video and IM messages, and eliminates the electronic spying problem.  There are between 5M and 8M Skype users on line at any time.  All encrypted.  It would take a lot of footwork to seize all those computers.  Skype generates new keys randomly pretty frequently, so the key you use one day will be different from the next.

The bottom line is that you have significantly more communication privacy if you use encryption. 

On the other hand anything you email without encryption or say on the phone/cell phone is being monitored and recorded….

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By Conservative Yankee, September 10, 2007 at 2:14 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

99633 by Michael Shaw on 9/10 at 12:06 pm

“I wouldn’t be bragging about the Cayman Islands either. That might make it sound to some like you have plenty to hide.”

No actually the limit at Royal Bank is 5k hardly a fortune these days.  AND as I said in my post I never do anything illegal. The Grand Caymans are a “British protectorate” therefore a perfectly legal place to bank one’s money.  Just as Loyd’s is a perfectly legal place to buy insurance.

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By Michael Shaw, September 10, 2007 at 1:06 pm Link to this comment

99444

Conservative Yankee some interesting points there I’ll grant you but without some form of credit history there is very little you can do and if you plunk down large amounts of cash(unless you’re doing business in the black market) you are asking for scrutiny. I wouldn’t be bragging about the Cayman Islands either. That might make it sound to some like you have plenty to hide.

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